Thursday, October 30, 2014

CCP Decides to Ban All Awoxing/Safaris in Highsec

If you're like most people, you probably assume CSM meeting minutes are boring and not worth reading. Maybe so. However, I've always found them useful for one thing: Learning about the latest nerfs to highsec PvP. So when the CSM9 Summer Summit Minutes were released this week, I took a quick look to see how the all-important "new players" were going to be rescued from dangerous, dangerous highsec this time. It didn't take long to find out:
CCP Masterplan: "We're looking at changing three things before the end of the year. First is the intra-corp aggression rules. At the moment, all members can now freely aggress each other. We are looking to change this so that being in the same member corp does not give you the right to legally kill your corp mates. The main goal of this is to make recruitment safer for the recruiter and the recruitee. And it will remove the fact that you currently cannot mitigate the risk of recruiting someone, which makes people not recruit."
Yes, it's the long-awaited nerf to awoxing. You see, highsec wasn't safe enough, and we needed One More Nerf™ to protect the carebears. This will come as little surprise to my readers. This isn't the first, second, or tenth time my predictions about the direction of highsec have come true. The other forms of highsec PvP have been nerfed on a regular basis, but awoxing went unscathed until now. To make up for lost time, CCP decided to remove it from the game completely, rather than subject it to incremental nerfs.

The news, quoted above, arrived on page 78 of the minutes, in the innocuously titled "Corporations and Alliances" section. Awoxing--also commonly referred to as the "safari"--has been around since EVE began 11 years ago. One of the first things any EVE player learns is that members of the same corp can shoot each other freely in highsec. A highsec awoxer joins a corp specifically so he can shoot his corpmates. Reverse-awoxing (or the reverse-safari), where a CEO invites someone into his corp with the intention of shooting him, will also be eliminated by the change.

If you've ever enjoyed reading stories about a 10-hour hero who joins a corp and kills an Orca, or someone who holds their CEO hostage for a medal, you might have considered getting another account for awoxing. Move quickly or don't bother. The days of the safari are coming to an end.

Of course, people use the corpmate-shooting feature for things besides awoxing. New players are taught how to fight by practicing within their own corp. No longer. When the CSM learned about CCP's intention to remove this ability, they were a little concerned. From the meeting minutes...
Managa Solaris [an RvB fleet commander]: "The Free For Alls and Fleet balancing would be screwed for us. On the other hand, it would encourage focus on the war."

DJ Funky Bacon: "Being able to shoot corpmates has been key to practicing PvP with each other."

Ali Aras: "It is also a method and how I first learned to PvP."

CCP Bettik: "Right, and I think a lot of corporations do that. But we have duels."

Ali Aras: "It is tough even on a smaller scale. We have one person jumping through a gate and people practicing tackling maneuvers and spiraling maneuvers before we had access to a null sec system to do this securely."

CCP Fozzie: "You can do some of this by just having people open a limited engagement duel. If there is only one person and he is shooting back at them it is very easy to open up a series of duels."
When CCP added the duel feature, they did away with limited-engagement can-flipping. Duels are now the justification for removing the ability to awox, as well. One wonders what changes the upcoming "dojo" feature will be used to justify. But as Ali Aras pointed out, the duel feature isn't really suited for corp fleet practice. CCP Fozzie thinks it will be easy to tell everyone in EVE not to shoot their corp members anymore, and to teach them to open up a series of duels. It would be even easier to let people continue to shoot their corpmates, as they've done for the past decade--but that might lead to dead carebears.
CCP Bettik: "What sold me on this point was we are teaching people that it's safer in an NPC corporation than a player corporation. We know that it is better for them to join a player corporation, but we want to make sure that people can get into a corporation. We know that there is a social barrier for some and some people have truly bad experiences. However, this is about the person that joins a corp and suddenly they are dead and they don't know what happened."
CCP Bettik points out that the possibility of an awox makes it more dangerous to be a member of a player corp. This has always been true, though: Player corps can be wardecced, while NPC corps can't. Player corps are supposed to be more risky than NPC corps. That's how they were designed. In exchange for the risks of joining a player corp, you can get a lower tax rate and numerous other benefits. Bettik's logic for the removal of awoxing can be used--and has been used, frequently--to argue for the removal of non-consensual wardecs. After all, wardecs are a bigger and more common danger for player corps than awoxes are. Plenty of players stay in an NPC corp to avoid wardecs. Few give awoxes much thought.
DJ Funkybacon: "Can we not educate people against this instead of changing mechanics? There are some legitimate uses to corpos being able to shoot each other. To kill that in favor of a small part of the community trying to shoot newer folks seems silly."

Sion Kumitomo: "Realistically, the people who are being affected are newer people in high sec. When you have a situation where you have people inviting people into a corporation, in a place called high sec, which is essentially safe in many ways. When their entire interaction with the game is trying to learn it and you have people specifically targeting them because they do not know. We have discussed this extensively as the CSM before I posted on the internal threads about it. It is almost unanimous that we think it is a good idea."

DJ FunkyBacon: "Newer people in high sec and dumb people are not the same. When you get to the point that your four billion ISK mission ship is getting AWOXed I don’t think you are new anymore. I don't know anyone who invited noobs in tristans to their corp so that they could gank them."
Thankfully, DJ FunkyBacon is on the CSM to serve as the representative of lowsec players and people who have common sense.
CCP Fozzie: "To address Funky's comment about dumb people. I really don't think that you can assume that someone who joins a group in an online game, and doesn't assume immediately that means that person gets immunity from all of the game's normal consequences for shooting them, is dumb. That's the game being dumb and the player being normal and smart.

Corbexx: "A lot of high sec people wish to play on their own. They do not want to interact with other people. They just want to get on and play. They don't read forums. They want to relax and do what they want to do. Even if you put notices that you can go and learn about corp roles they are not going to learn it."

CCP Fozzie: "This is an aspect that you can play for years and never encounter. Not all of us are that type of super user. It is the game not acting in a reasonable way that a reasonable human being would understand."

DJ FunkyBacon disagrees.
Bizarrely, CCP Fozzie thinks a player who knows about the ability to shoot corpmates in is a "type of super user". I have another name for them: "Person who's been in a player corp for more than five minutes." Corbexx points out that highsec players don't want to hear or learn new stuff. Yet this change will require every highsec player to learn that they'll be CONCORDed if they shoot corpmates from now on. And they'll need to learn how to use duels. How does this change help low-info users, again?

Another paradox is that Fozzie thinks the removal of corp-shooting will somehow make EVE Online more user-friendly and intuitive for new players. Let's play a little game to see how Fozzie's logic holds up. Choose which of the following is more user-friendly and intuitive for new players:

(A) Telling new players that you can freely shoot corpmates in highsec, just as they have for the past decade.

(B) Telling all new players who joined the game prior to the change that they can no longer shoot corpmates in highsec, telling all new players who joined the game after the change that their older corpmates are wrong if they say otherwise, and teaching everyone how to open up a series of duels with each other so they can practice PvP.

Officially, "B" is the correct answer. I wonder how many people will accidentally CONCORD themselves once the system gets more user-friendly.
Ali Aras: "Anecdotally, it has also retained different people in the game. People are attracted to it. For people who are attracted to this particular kind of infiltration gameplay."

Sion Kumitomo: "You can still do that in null sec, low sec, and wormholes."

CCP Fozzie: "You can do it in high sec to, just in different ways. Suicide gankings."

CCP FoxFour: "The idea that this is the only way to cause harm by joining a corporation does not exist. You can join a corporation and still assassinate someone. You can convince them to give you assets. You can convince them to go through a low sec gate. You can convince them to go mission in an expensive ship and suicide gank them."

CCP Fozzie: "You can still war dec them."

Sugar Kyle: "They can still be ganked by mission gankers and stuff and they shouldn’t think that high sec is safe."
Ah, the old "this nerf isn't a big deal because highsec still isn't 100% safe yet" line. When people called for nerfs to suicide ganking, they said it was fine because wardecs were still possible; nerfs to wardecs are fine because people can still suicide gank. Before today, they also used to say griefers shouldn't complain about nerfs to ganking/wardecs because they could still engage in can-flipping and awoxing. Besides, only One More Nerf™ is needed. We promise this is the last one, for real this time. You don't believe in that slippery slope fallacy, do you?
CCP Bettik: "Ganking still remains. We know that people who quit from this are people who will never try Eve again because they feel violated."
People who quit due to awoxes are carebears. These are the same people who send death threats when someone ganks their Retriever. They feel violated when it rains.
Mike Azariah: "You said the guy in the blinged out Golem is ganked. But those are often noobs who have purchased a character and ship with PLEX. I have met these people who are only three weeks old. They can still be new players."

CCP Bettik: "I don't think it is the length of time that matters, but the experience. I don't see a difference between losing a Venture or a Golem. It is a person who walks into a situation he did not understand and he loses."

Sion Kumitomo: "This is one of the few areas where I can see that Malcanis' Law does not apply."

CCP Fozzie: "Malcanis' Law applies to pretty much everything and that makes it useless."
As usual, highsec PvP is be nerfed under the pretense of protecting new players. (Think of the children!) Everyone knows this is nonsense. Blingy mission runners and Orca pilots aren't new players. People don't awox in the hopes of killing rookie ships and tech I frigates. It used to be that EVE celebrated ganks performed against the Pay-To-Win types, people who used real money to buy expensive ships they didn't know how to fly. Now the Pay-To-Win players are such a precious resource that they must be protected by removing gameplay. A blingy Golem might be a new player, so the rules need to be rewritten to make highsec even safer for them. If they lose a ship, they might quit. We certainly can't risk that, given their extraordinary contributions to the community.
CCP Fozzie: "We feel for the griefers who are affected by this but they will do fine."
Fortunately, CCP Fozzie reassures us that the griefers will be fine. Of course, people were fine with corp-shooting for the past decade, so "fine" is a pretty easy standard to meet. As for those who enjoyed awoxing, they can go do something else (until that gets nerfed, too).

I know a lot of people reading this are going to be asking, "What happened to CCP Fozzie? Didn't he used to be smart?" Fozzie specializes in ship balancing. He's an expert on that subject. He probably knows every ship bonus by heart. The problem with Fozzie is that he seems to be equally confident in dealing with a subject he knows nothing about. There's no other way to explain his comments here.


Some feel this change is justified because it will make recruiters more willing to accept newbies. The Mittani himself once opined that the removal of highsec awoxing would give CCP a boost in subscription revenues. If newbies are able to get into a player corp, they're more likely to stick around. That means more money for CCP.

In fact, there are already literally thousands of corps in highsec that accept everyone who applies. They'll take anyone. They beg for recruits. Some corps actually pay people to join. If a newbie wants to join a player corp, they will, and they do.

"But James 315," you say. "Those are bad corps. They have lousy leaders and sit around AFK mining all day. They teach newbies that EVE is boring. We want newbies to join good corps, worthwhile corps, ones that show newbies EVE can be fun. Those corps don't accept newbies, for fear of awoxers."

Fair enough. One small problem: About 99% of those good, worthwhile corps operate in lowsec, nullsec, and wormhole space. The removal of highsec awoxing has no effect on them whatsoever, so their recruitment policies will not change.

As for the small number of worthwhile highsec corps, those are highsec PvP corps. The PvE-only corps are all the same, and are all boring, whether they take newbies or not. Among the highsec corps who do PvP, some already take newbies. The ones who don't take newbies fall into one or both of the following categories:

Group #1. They have skillpoint requirements. They only take people who have money and ships and already know how to fight. They're not interested in training new players.

Group #2. They restrict access because they don't want spies, corp thieves, or awoxers.

The removal of awoxing has no effect on Group #1. The removal of awoxing won't open up Group #2, either. A new player can still be a spy or corp thief, so they won't be allowed into the corp. After the change, there won't be a threat of awoxing, but here's the thing--highsec PvP corps aren't threatened by newbie awoxers. Suppose you managed to sneak your 10-hour hero into The Marmite Collective, for instance. You open fire with your Catalyst and what happens? They laugh at you and pop your ship.

Highsec awoxing is different from low/null/worm awoxing. Consider this exchange from the minutes:
Corbexx: "And they can still attack low sec groups, and wormhole groups, and null sec groups, and kill their corpmates."

Ali Aras: "It's a different dynamic."

Corbexx: "It's the same thing. You're infiltrating a corp to grief it."
I was pleasantly surprised by Ali Aras throughout this section of the minutes. She actually seemed to know what she was talking about. That might sound like damning with faint praise, but within the context of CSM minutes, it's about the biggest compliment I can give.

In low/null/worm, a newbie awoxer can train into a tackle ship and hold someone down while his main (or friends), in a highly-skilled character, provides the firepower. This is what Awox, the original awoxer, did. You can't do this with a newbie awoxer in highsec, because the attackers must all be a member of the corp.

In low/null/worm, a newbie awoxer can cause diplomatic incidents by attacking blues. Again, this is what Awox did. You can't do this in highsec, because shooting blues gets you CONCORDed.

In highsec, the awoxer must play the role of tackle and firepower. Newbie awoxers pose a threat to only one kind of highsec corp: One filled with nothing but defenseless, unarmed carebears. If you bring your new Catalyst pilot to a mining op, a single defense ship will prevent you from awoxing. But if they're all pure PvE players, you can attack their Orca (unless he has drones) or possibly a freighter.

In other words, newbie awoxers in highsec can only do damage to the same kind of bad, boring corp that already takes every member who applies. Highsec corps won't change their hiring practices. If they don't take newbies today, they won't take them after the change. They'll continue to enforce their skillpoint requirements or screening against spies and corp thieves.

CCP won't make an extra dollar or euro as a result of this change. Real talk incoming: Making highsec safer isn't the way for CCP to get more money. If CCP wants more money, it should stop wasting millions of dollars on obvious losers like Dust 514 (lackluster FPS in oversaturated market, on obsolete console), Incarna (mostly vaporware), and World of Darkness (entirely vaporware). Don't blame EVE players for CCP's financial state. Also, drop the new player fetish. EVE is 11 years old. It's no spring chicken. The "new players" CCP wants to attract are people who tried EVE years ago and didn't like it. If you want new players, make a new game.

The irony here is that awoxers are a small, but proud, community. There aren't many of them, and their annihilation won't make highsec much safer anyway. As I said earlier, carebears who choose NPC corps do it to avoid wardecs, not awoxers.  The removal of awoxing is, frankly, a sign of desperation--they're running out of things to nerf. As the last several years have shown, nerfing highsec aggression doesn't bring any extra money to CCP.

It's the awoxers themselves, people like Psychotic Monk, who will feel the effects. They won't have their favorite activity in EVE anymore. But highsec only needed One More Nerf™ to make carebears safe, so no one else should worry.

One small prediction, though: After awoxing is removed, carebears will still complain about getting killed in highsec.

110 comments:

  1. Good post James, well said.

    "One small prediction, though: After awoxing is removed, carebears will still complain about getting killed in highsec. "

    ^^ - this... is sooo true.

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    1. Quote:
      If you've ever enjoyed reading stories about a 10-hour hero who joins a corp and kills an Orca, or someone who holds their CEO hostage for a medal, you might have considered getting another account for awoxing.

      All I gotta say is...

      (1) if you enjoy that, good riddance and...
      (2) wanna practice PvP, wanna learn PvP :stuff: w/o CONCORD?
      Fukkin easy... jump into a C1 wormhole FFS...

      Talk Talk over...

      Delete
  2. Time to prepare my RvB alt for multi-boxing New Order fun (tm)!

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  3. When is the rollout
    of this latest "One More Nerf"?
    Damn it CCP...

    ReplyDelete
  4. I look forward to concord-free subscription-free carebear-rich Elite Dangerous going live just as this latest move is implemented.

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    1. ^^^ this. Exactly this. CCP will eventually realize they aren't the only space sim on the market, but will any of their playerbase still be with them when they do.

      Delete
    2. ^^^ this. The vast majority of the playerbase can't WAIT for all of you to unsub and go play ANYTHING else... seriously, anything.

      Delete
  5. I'd say this is an unfreaking believeable step by CCP but... it doesn't surprise me one bit.

    I was just fine with, and actually supportive of the recent addition of the kick queue that allows for a pilot to be removed from a corp automatically at downtime, but that should have been the end of any changes to AWOXing. The last time I AWOXed anyone I was awarded CEO of the Year by James himself two some years ago, so it's not like I'm going to lose out on my favorite aspect of EVE gameplay but there's that small community of players who *will* and I'm appalled that CCP wants to take the game in the direction of *removing* playstyles rather than *expanding* them.

    The fight continues. As in all wars, battles are won and lost. If this plan by CCP comes to pass it will be a solid blow to EVE, but we'll still be here fighting the good fight, the *right* fight.

    The Code *always* wins!

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    1. Strange, even Jimmy the whiny didn't think so!
      No "victory" tag this time!
      xD

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    2. Just goes to show you how "trained" and "bot like" the code and their supporters are.



      Yeah, I was awoxed when I first joined a player corp. Some dude in a Hyperion killed me when I was flying a rookie ship. Podded me too.

      Delete
  6. Okay, okay. Seriously though, just make being in highsec apply a condition to your mounted weaponry that makes it shoot rainbows and unicorns. Like, lasers could be rainbows, missiles could be unicorns or nyancats (LOL!), hybrids and projectiles could shoot jellybeans. And have drones transformed into literal carebears. That way everybody can spread the love, and nobody will be hurt in highsec ever again. Not ever again. I predict such a change would net a solid 300% increase in income for CCP.

    Don't you dare touch strip miners though, they should still work properly. This is no child's play after all.

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  7. Wall of Text read later, however i saw:
    "One small prediction, though: After awoxing is removed, carebears will still complain about getting killed in highsec. "
    No prediction there, thats EvE.
    The Bad News for you guys is: EvE is getting more NewBro friendly and more anti-grief. Bad luck for you.

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    1. Bad luck for everyone. New Order, me, you, the carebears and CCP. We all lose.

      Delete
    2. Oooooooooooooooooooooooh sweet tears!
      No, not very everyone.
      No one likes griefers, no one will miss them.
      No more cheap kills.
      HTFU.
      Learn pvp (the real thing with stuff shooting back) and go lo-sec / null-sec

      Delete
    3. So you want to grind in HiSec for longer because demand for items goes down and supply goes up. You're happy that less HiSec content will have a negative impact on player retention. In addition, the longer grind necessary to pay for good PvP kit will further put players off PvP, making more players quit. There will also be fewer opportunities to learn his to PvP, which can only worsen the illusion that you need 20mil SP minimum to do anything outaide HiSec.

      The game becomes less fun for everyone and CCP's bottom line gets hurt as a result. It's all very well and good slurping up those griefer tears, but without those griefers, EVE is nothing.

      Like I said: everyone loses.

      Delete
  8. You do not like hi-sec nerfs?
    Do the logical thing!
    HTFU and go to lo-sec and null-sec.

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  9. "blabla is supposed bloobloo..."
    Hold on!
    CCP says whats supposed to happen in New Eden.
    No one cares for idiots who select them self to "saviours".

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    1. Yes, goddammit! And if CCP turns this game into World of fucking Warcraft, i will play WoW, because CCP! We should not dare think of the consequences their actions have, rather we should embrace everything they say*!






      *that is in favor of what i think is right, obv.

      Delete
    2. Why are you crying?
      There is still lo-sec and null-sec?
      Go there and learn real pvp.

      Delete
    3. You're on a page dedicated to keeping highsec the classic way and wonder why somebody on here is upset about ccp changing a fundamental, decade-old mechanic.

      Delete
    4. Times change, WoW changes, EvE changes.
      Leave and write your own game.
      "fundamental?"
      yeah right.
      oh less options to be a griefer...
      griefer is sad.
      griefer cries tears!

      Delete
    5. Would you call it a fundamental change if WoW suddenly allowed for guildmates to kill each other?

      Delete
    6. Yes, things change, that is an astute observation. Sometimes they change for the better, sometimes for the worse, unfortunately you didn't account for that in the "point" you were trying to make.

      Delete
    7. Anonymous October 30, 2014 at 7:43 PM
      Because its obvious:
      "decade-old" dosn't mean it is good.
      Maybe there was a time where it made sense, but that changed.
      "Sometimes they change for the better, sometimes for the worse, "
      "One man's meat is another man's poison."
      this mechanic is obsolete in EvE and so are code-monkeys.

      Delete
    8. Anon 8:10: But how can something be obsolete if there is nothing better to take its place? Awoxing occupied a very important spot in this game. It was part of the meta for as long as the game existed, and now it is but a "feature removed".
      Here is why i think that awoxing is important; the one big thing that sets EvE apart from other multiplayer games is that it features metagaming like no other game i have ever heard of. All the hype around this game (even most official trailers, for example, feature this) is centered around it being gritty and unforgiving. One of the first things you hear about EvE when you start off is its ridiculous learning curve, and chances are that within your first day of playing somebody will link that infamous picture of the "learning cliff" to you, be it in rookie help.
      And that is a good thing. And this is why removing awoxing is bad. It takes away a part of EvE that gives it its reputation. Personally, i think that awoxing doesn't play as big a role as i might just have depicted it (d'oh), but what gets me upset is the fact that this set up yet another precedence of ccp pulling the teeth out of the shark that is EvE. Unfortunately, unlike an actual shark, this behemoth of a game might not be able to recover if enough teeth are pulled.

      I hope i could bring my point of view a bit closer to you. I'm sorry if have lashed out, it is not you getting me upset, i'm just in a bit of a mood over this ominous decision by ccp.

      Delete
    9. If what James say is true and "that awoxers are a small, but proud, community. There aren't many of them, and their annihilation won't make highsec much safer anyway." and what you say "i think that awoxing doesn't play as big a role as i might just have depicted it " is true then the actual effects of this change will likely be minimal.

      I, too, thought the corp kick at downtime went far enough. I also think that there wasn't an issue with inter-corp aggression for all of the reasons the CSM members listed (and probably many others as well).

      Obviously CCP disagrees and thinks (or perhaps has sub cancellation data showing) that people really, really dislike being attacked, in highsec, by corp mates. Possibly to such a degree that it is a noticeable number in the overall statistics of cancelled subs or failure to sub at all. Who knows. Suffice to say they have decided to implement a change.

      Moaning and gnashing of teeth and cries of "x will be the death of Eve" have been derided with good reason for over a decade. From all parts of New Eden. By all types of players. It's your (not you personally) turn. This impacts your gameplay. I get it. It's not going to kill Eve. Alter your playstyle(s). Everyone else has had to over the years (and will continue to do so). Basically, get over yourselves.

      (disclaimer - not a griefer but also not an anti-griefer - smart play easily avoids/mitigates your attempted shenanigans either way)

      Delete
    10. I will admit... There has been times where I wanted to kill people in the same faction that I'm in, and same guild even. But WoW won't even let you do that. At least in EvE, you can still shoot any anyone, as long as you are willing to suffer the consequences of those actions.

      However, one of the major hassles of joining a player corp is going to be removed. And when something doesn't go his way, James 315 throws a temper tantrum like a two year old who was told "no" by his mommy in the form of a wall of textual tears.

      However, when I first started, I joined a player corp and was killed by some joker in a Hyperion battleship. I was flying a rookie ship. Now that won't happen anymore.

      Delete
    11. Jimmy this smarmy idiot thinks his oppinon is worth something since he elected himself.
      "uwaaaa i can not easily get kills, but i am the most important player,so EvE is gonna die!"
      LOL
      After the book of tears, here comes Jimmies "river of tears".

      Delete
    12. "Anonymous October 30, 2014 at 9:43 PM"
      "But how can something be obsolete if there is nothing better to take its place?"
      Some designs are so bad, that they need to be removed before something better takes place. WAIT! But here is losec and hisec!
      Ooooh you get shot down there?
      To bad i feel no compassion for griefers...
      :p

      Delete
  10. Yummi griefer tears!
    *chews pocorn and waits for more*

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  11. Extra dollars for:
    what CCP does?
    or what deliriious jimmy cries about?
    I think CCP is right and Jimmy thinks his oppinion counts. Nope, it doesn't

    ReplyDelete
  12. Oh dear. This is troubling news. I understand wanting to keep newbros from ragequitting after an hour, but Funkybacon is absolutely right. There is a big difference between a newbro t1 frig and a complacent orca pilot/golem pilot. Fozzie seems very disconnected.

    I suppose my AWOX alts will now have to become MORE catalyst and tornado alts. On the plus side: these bears will feel even safer to undock their hilariously shiny fit mission boats and go AFK. After all....there is nothing for them to fear now...

    As always, we will adapt and extract the permit fees and tears that we require.

    -Pastor Handsome Larry

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    1. You code guys are giving off more tears right now. In fact, there's been virtually nothing coming from code except tears since E1 got banned.

      Delete
  13. disconnect is what code-monkeys are.
    EvE doesn't turn around them. No one really likes them!
    Even their "supporters" are using them.
    LOL

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  14. Not that I really support such a change to inter-corp mechanics, but if they were to do it...

    (Toggle option in corp management: Hire Concord) I think it should cost isk to hire Concord to protect corp mates from each other and that this cost should come straight from the wallets of all the corp members every month as a flat percentage. This should be a significant cost and effect everything that puts isk into the player wallet, whether it is market, ratting, missioning, or even direct station trading. Make it significant enough that only the most paranoid will want it. These are the kind of CEOS that never give out any real roles anyway, so it's not like the corp is going anywhere. If the toggle only works in, then it also creates an incentive to actually live in lawless spaces (Null,Low,WH) and not just run to Jita every time you need something.

    Even then, James is right that few corporations are going to just open their doors to complete strangers. Every corp has certain types of people they want to have, and others who won't fit into the current 'culture.' Plus, thieves and spies are still a constant danger to the corps that actually have a plan and aren't just a 'social club.'

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  15. And so jimmy cries because he can see the end of code is nigh!
    And so jimmy wept and cried watery tears, trembing with fear!
    But the miners of highsec rejoiced.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Except they won't as they undock and find all the belts stripped clean by the botters that used to live out in null, who suddenly have this perfectly safe place to get all the resources they will ever need... The only left to do will be to become gankers themselves....

      Delete
    2. confirming that the only thing keeping the NPC corp botters in nullsec was the highsec awoxxing mechanics, and now that those are being adjusted all the botters will be relocating to highsec and stripping the belts clean.

      Delete
    3. It's almost a year since you declared "the end of code is nigh". Last I heard (and I heard yesterday), CODE was still alive and well. Heh. :)

      Delete
  16. Sadly the code will be marginalized out of existence. CCP is determined to soften their game. You are like popsicle sticks beating against an armored tank. Here's to fewer great stories in Eve. It's a shame that CCP can't come up with something more creative to deal with these issues. I for one believe that more tools for pvp and more defenses against it are the correct course of action, not a ham fisted change to the fundamental nature of the game experience. Intricacy is not something that should ever be shied away from in Eve. P.S. that ship loss mission you added in the tutorials did nothing for this weird anti-pvp mentality that proliferates your game CCP.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Nobody cares about your 0 dollars per month James
    Obey, adapt or die


    Also I predicted AWOx will disappear as it was investors idea

    ReplyDelete
  18. While I do mostly agree (98-99%), I do believe there is more to the AWOX than blapping ships. This will take the primary teeth out of recruiting fears in AWOXing. But it won't really solve the problem of corp thieves and spies like James said.

    Although, The Mittani did write an article about keeping new players by revamping the New Player Experience:

    http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-newbie-zone

    Any thoughts on this?

    ReplyDelete
  19. Feel free to participate in my thread on this on the Eve forums. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=382476&p=16

    My personal view is that this will only have a minor impact.There are three reasons I don't join highsec corps:

    1 - awoxing
    2 - wardeccs
    3- theft

    So it fixes one problem but the other 2 remains. In my view because of this highsec corps remain useless, and personally that's why I don't join them.

    ReplyDelete
  20. It looks like the carebears are getting more bang per isk than code monkeys...carebears have received 0 Isk in donations, and awoxing is about to die...code monkeys have received over 461 Billions Isk in donations, and awoxing is about to die...looks like the carebears are immensely more efficient than the code monkeys...so much for following a baboon...

    ReplyDelete
  21. This is getting absolutely pathetic. CCP has been throwing the old players under the bus for a long time now in an effort to cater to the newbs. Some Void S ought to dispatch a slew of them running back to WOW.

    ReplyDelete
  22. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  23. All you pathetic Schadenfreude-seeking gankers have brought this upon yourselves. The more you abuse others' goodwill, the more you metagame, lie, and abuse mechanics, the more games have to remove sand from the sandbox.

    Don't call it Trammel, this is the future you chose. And get therapy.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I gank and have been ganked, and been on both ends of hisec wardecs - for the fun and money, not for the schadenfreude. Also gankers have not been exploiting mechanics any more than a falling apple exploits gravity.

      This is not the future we choose, we choose to keep hisec fun and interesting. Let's imagine you get your wish. You mine you pve, and have to do this more and more as Plex rises and for what? What does it mean? Without meaning people quit. If they're here for their friends, they quit and play more engaging games together.

      Love em or hate em, fight em or join em, CODE create meaning in this sandbox where CCP do not, and neither do the vast majority of hisec corps. Don't get it twisted. CODE are the good guys.

      I am not associated with CODE and support their goal 100% even if I do not agree with all their methods.

      Delete
    2. Code are highsec "waschlappen". New Eden has more than hi-sec.
      CCP wants to drive people into lo- / null- sec. That means wannabe pvpler like YOU!

      Delete
    3. Indeed they brought it up themselfes. +1
      schadenfreude when they kann piss of others, but big tears when they got hit.

      Delete
    4. More fact correction, I lived in a C3 for 6+ months and have had an alt in null. The sad fact is, it was boring. But don't bother engaging in debate, enjoy your prejudice.

      Delete
    5. PLEX will keep rising anyway because RMT is widespread:
      http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?18005-A-Rose-by-any-other-name

      Can't wait till unconsensual PvP is fully removed from highsec. You will have brought it upon yourselves. Cry more.

      Delete
    6. It's no longer "one more nerf", it's now "remove HiSec PvP". If you don't like EVE, don't play it. Why insist on ruining it for everyone else?

      Delete
  24. A wise man once said:
    The weak are meat and the strong must eat.

    This is the heart of EvE. Any newb that has lasted a year in the game will tell you that. The grit of the game makes the victories that much more awesome. It is what attracts new players.

    This is a loss to everyone in HighSec except for the "New Carebears" the ganking-is-bullying-stay-away-from-my-kids crowd.

    Hopefully some balance will be restored, as the carebears get fatter and softer, ganking and wardecing will increase.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Personally I'm doing quite well without being meat nor eating. Just reasonable tanking decisions and collaborative PvE make for a perfectly reasonable experience outside of the "food chain" as it were.

      Delete
    2. It's great you enjoy your singular facet of the Eve gem Mr Tritbar. You should feel for those who get theirs shaved off by CCP because that's of detriment to the game as a whole.

      Delete
    3. The are getting it "shaved off" because they got their giggles from slaughtering new players and creating a toxic atmosphere in high sec. They pushed the envelope too far, and it fell right off the table.

      Delete
    4. For starters I imagine this affects the Belligerent crowd more than CODE. But anyway, this stuff has existed for years. Why now? Is awoxing really rampant these days? I doubt it. As CCP do not share the data we have to speculate, and resort to anecdotal evidence which is rather cowardly of them.

      My guess is it's a result of a cultural shift at CCP, and falling sub figures as a result of Eve being increasingly uncompetitive in an increasingly crowded marketplace, causing some sweaty palms and bad decisions to be made. CCP are effectively killing the USP of Eve which is commercial suicide.

      If hisec becomes a theme park the game will die. And it's whining hiseccers who won't be here in 2 years time anyway who are pressuring CCP into bad moves. It's akin to letting tourists vote in your national elections.

      Delete
  25. Eve Online- Dying one nerf at a time...

    ReplyDelete
  26. Really sad to see this go. It was the thrill of /being/ scammed that made me fall in love with EvE. Take away ways to do that and EvE becomes a very bad spaceship game. I have almost no reason to ever go to Highsec now.

    ReplyDelete
  27. We can still take this lemon and make lemonade!

    I invite all highsec awoxers to join CODE.'s new wardec division:

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=382198

    Of course, you'll still want to keep some accounts separate for corp thefts, but it would be nice to get a hundred or so guys to join by the end of the year. Gankers should also consider putting a positive sec status pvper into the wardec corp.

    This is also a great time to purchase shares! You can certainly request that some of your funds be diverted to help jumpstart wardecs.

    If you're a highsec carebear, this is also a great time to purchase a mining permit and ensure your entire corp is compliant. Because CODE. is coming, in force.

    :o)

    xoxo

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. *eyeroll* if CODE is any more wildly successful mineral places might fall even further.....450 billion down the tubes to kill miners - result: more mining than ever.

      Delete
    2. *eyeroll* if CODE is any more wildly successful in stopping mining mineral prices may....keep going down. 450 billion isk lit on fire to stop mining...result - more mining.

      Fail.

      Delete
    3. And code will be degraded even further to the point of being like The Marmite Collective who wardecs everyone. Then you can play station games like everyone else does.

      Delete
    4. Actually, CODE's actions cause mineral prices to go up, if anything. Their actions both limit supply and increase demand, even if only on a microscopic scale compared to the wider EVE market.

      Falling prices means that HiSec and bearish professions are getting safer. They're easier to make money from, but the rewards are getting smaller. This has a negative impact on newer players who must grind for longer to buy those shiny ships.

      Think of the newbies!

      Delete
    5. Correct anon, falling prices hurt newbies. CODE also hurts newbies by killing them. If CODE just killed the botters/boxers I would be fine with it. But #effort, so CODE focuses on killing the newbies because they produce more tears. So fail.

      Delete
    6. "CODE also hurts newbies by killing them."

      Close, but not quite. CODE hurts -->some miners<--, not necessarily newbies, that take an excessive gamble.

      The end result is that you have bad players that don't bother to protect themselves or simply quit, and you have stronger players who are able to adapt to their environment and prosper accordingly.

      When it comes to botters, they're not taking a gamble. They're tanking up to discourage gankers. It's great when a cost effectively opportunity to kill them presents itself, but such opportunities are rare.

      Delete
  28. Up till now the smart highsec PVE players were either in NPC corp or solo corp. All the other choices we sub optimal. Of course the current highsec PVE corps are crap, they are run and staffed by players who don't understand they are sub optimal.

    What removing awoxing does is make highsec player corps less suboptimal. If they can organise well enough to defend against war decs then they have half a chance of being a good place to join. This change may allow some inspiring leaders to create some decent corps.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @Anonymous 3:47

      Actually, it just removes the primary teeth of an awoxer's repertoire, which is the ability to attack your corpmates. Though I'm not entirely sure where awoxing ends and then you get more specific about corp thieves and spies, to me aside from spying destroying/attacking corpmates and stealing corp assets or the corp itself falls under this term.

      Now, this does make corporations a little bit safer, but it still makes them more risky than an NPC corp since there's still a danger of spies and thieves. And this really won't go towards making the better corps in highsec open their doors for reasons already mentioned.

      Delete
    2. "the better corps in highsec"

      there are NO good PVE corps in highsec. Because they are sub optimal. Anyone smart enough to run a good PVE corp realised this and didn't start one.

      Now with proper wallet and asset management a decent CEO might be able to run a corp that is better for its members than remaining in the NPC corp or their solo corp. The reward now only needs to be higher than the risk of wardecs.

      Delete
    3. I didn't specify the type of corp in particular now did I? I just said the better one, I didn't say PVE or PVP or any other particular type. I just said the better ones, which as has been pointed out, aren't PVE corps.

      Delete
    4. So you did specify the type of corp.

      Delete
    5. In my original post, I don't think so. In my post answering yours (12.25), yes, by use of the phrase "aren't PVE corps." That in and of itself is a specification by saying, "It isn't this type of corp."

      Delete
    6. You said "the better corps of highsec". That is a specification that matches "PvP corps". PvE corps have literally no reason to exist outside of a chat channel and if that's all you're after you can create...a chat channel!

      That's what good players do. They consider their options and run with the best one. Bad players simply say things like "I want to be a CEO" and then just do it, little realising the drawbacks such an action has. Hence, good corps have a purpose: they facilititate some sort of PvP; after all, why make yourself vulnerable to PvP if you have no intention of engaging it in any way?

      So, when you said "better corps" you were in effect saying, "PvP corps", excluding the "PvE corps".

      Delete
    7. @Anonymous 6:50

      That's pretty much what I was saying. I don't see why there seems to be a disagreement here. It's been established in the post and comments that PVE corps don't contribute and can often be run badly, so I don't think we have anything to disagree about.

      Delete
  29. Replies
    1. e1 is permabanned, he has to write his own game!
      :)
      You too!
      Go please write your own game and leave!

      Delete
    2. Which you will then join after EVE dies and insist the new game be changed to its own detriment too.

      Gotcha.

      Delete
  30. I'm confused. Surely the devs know that there's an incredibly large part of the playerbase that simply will not join a player corp. Sure, we can all fantasise about NPC tax rates being jacked up to stupid%, or at least to the point where player corps make financial sense, but the reality is that those people will quit the game at that point, rather than face the horrors of actually playing Eve. This change will screw good people like Pyschotic Monk and further sissify bad players with more EU-style nanny state hand-holding.

    I presume suicide ganking will receive another nerf shortly, especially given how much the devs quoted were relying on it to show that awoxing by another name will still be an option.

    ReplyDelete
  31. I let my corp know about this earlier today. We had lengthy discussions about it on teamspeak. Surprising to say, the consensus was that awoxing is bad, and that it should be removed from the game. These are people in my own corp who are saying this. You think that I'm in a highsec corp? Think again. I'm in a nullsec pvp corp, not a carebear corp.

    In all honestly, I'm kinda torn about it. There are legitimate uses for being able to shoot your corpmates. These uses include assassination, pvp training, retribution, and punishment. I support the idea to make it a setting that only the CEO can change. When/If it does change, put out a corp wide notice so everyone is on alert. I've been victimized by awoxing, and I have a buddy who was as well. So I'm not an awoxer, and I don't support it, but this is a fundamental gameplay mechanic that is being changed. Lots more discussion needs to be done on this before it is implemented.

    Oh, and if you are wondering about peer punishment, there was an incident awhile back where a mining fleet got pissed off and turned on their orca booster pilot. They blew up his orca. It's on youtube. Something about skimming ore...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree, amazingly. But if someone gets so "butthurt" over an awox they quit it seems unlikely they will learn to handle eve's permaloss.

      Delete
    2. I got awoxed once, lost a freighter and a 500mil courier contract, 5 months later I apologised to the awoxer for how I acted after the awox and thanked him for introducing me to a whole mother world of gameplay, if not for him I probably never would have made it this long in EVE. As butthurt said I was a 'victim' but I prefer to call myself a student of the sandbox

      Delete
    3. Ha I know that Orca pilot you are talking about! Happened in the Bagadon area I think. Righteous kill administered by corp members. But not anymore (:

      Delete
    4. I don't "disagree" with you BHM. Personally I've never been part of or seen an awox, so I can honestly say I don't really care. I don't think it should be an arbitrary change though, but something the CEO of corp can do.

      Delete
    5. I think I might have come up with a solution to the awoxing a noob. Implement the toggle. If awoxing is enabled, then players less than 30 days old cannot join the corp. If the rookie player joins a non-awoxing corp and the CEO subsequently changes it, then the rookie player is booted from the corp automatically. This is ONLY for characters that are less than 30 days old.

      If a veteran creates a new toon and wants to engage in that type of gameplay, have a setting in the escape menu to disable that functionality which is on by default.

      Delete
  32. The problem is the massive abuse of the system under the excuse of teaching rookies how tough EvE is. That might be even working, BUT you have to take some other extra measures than feed on your "schadenfreude".
    Noone believe code-monkeys when they say its for the best of eve. Everyone not code-monkey thinks, that code-monkeys fuck with other people just because they like it and hide behind that excuse.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I enjoy defending HighSec from carebear terrorists. Carebear tears are extra sugary and sweet. Like Halloween candy.

      It's not the reason why we do what we do, but it is certainly a perk.

      Mmmmm, fluffy fat carebears.....

      Delete
    2. Sociopath Simulator Online.

      Delete
    3. Don't worry, in time the sociopathic carebears will be gone. One way or another, they'll remove themselves from the game.

      Delete
  33. Eve Online, the game where you can play the villain..... Until CCP nerfs you out of existance.

    ReplyDelete
  34. A concerned MinmatarOctober 31, 2014 at 10:02 AM

    Well friends, I guess CCP wants us to create 70% tax rate newbie farms for the benefit of new players. The newbies will never be liberated, but at least they won't lose a venture.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Heh, I was honestly thinking of doing the same thing. Set up a corp as a mission runners' "haven" and charging them a 50%+ tax for the privilege.

      No awoxers means no one can stop me.

      Delete
  35. And Eve just keeps sliding down the slippery slope :(

    ReplyDelete
  36. I'd always planned to do awoxing "eventually". As CCP has forced my hand, that "eventually" is now. Joined a highsec carebear corp last night, already have access to over a billion in corp assets, bpcs, and bpos. There's another couple billion I think I can sweet-talk my way into being given access to within the next couple of days. There are also tales of a boosting orca which might be brought out if I can help organize a mining op during the next couple of days.

    James, I hereby pledge half my take from this to buying NO shares. Long live the New Order! Long live the Code!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Best of luck. Long live the Code.

      Delete
  37. I don't understand the repeated use in the minutes of griefer and griefing when referring to people playing the game as intended and in fact doing exactly what the marketing of the game says you are allowed to do: play the bad guy

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree. CCP's own marketing uses 'Be The Villain' as a tag line....then goes on to nerf anything remotely 'bad' and bans people who actually do role play a villain.
      Long gone is the concept of role playing, in a role playing game. It's all just good guy and slightly less good guy. Shades of the exact same character with vaguely different skills to call their toon 'unique'.
      The more CCP chases after new players- who aren't invested in the game and are by far the most likely to quit for some shiny new title- the more they alienate those of us that have put years of time and subscription money into Eve.
      How many newbs that play for a month then quit could fit into the years I have in Eve? Why then is CCP so obsessed with making them happy to the exclusion of their long term players? The same applies to alts- long term players often run multiple accounts, again for years on end, compared to new players with their single sub and probably only a couple months of ever playing Eve before quitting.

      Delete
  38. Again, and again the whole new Order is guilty for this !!!

    Reason:

    the powerfull order showed (more than often) ganking is always possible always.
    it doesnt matter if mining barge of 2bill isk pve vessel or freighter

    CCP said GANKING will stay and be always possible....(read the whole text as i did)

    so no need for corp member shooting each other without possibilities

    if you havent gankes so much that hadnt happened / or will be happening in future

    another impact of new order

    GUILTY IS THE NEW ORDER !!! (for this future change)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The New Order don't really go in for awoxing that much, I think you are on the wrong website.

      Delete
    2. You might want to try http://belligerentundesirables.com/

      Hasn't been updated in a while though.

      Delete
  39. You are such a bunch of whiners. Just leave the game if you do not like it anymore.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There aren't any other PvP oriented MMOs. There's Darkfall, which frankly, isn't the hottest game ever created.

      I'm honestly interested in any such MMO that creates the sandbox PvP environment. Know of any?

      Delete
  40. I'm encouraged that I've unsubscribed at the right time.

    ReplyDelete
  41. It might well be a booster shot to recruiter over confidence.

    What's that old revenant mantra from the past? Adapt or Die.

    ReplyDelete
  42. I'm torn on this one, to be honest. (I know, comments here are meant to be vehemently on one side of the issue or the other...)

    It's undeniably One More Nerf, and you're right, we don't need anymore of those. On the other hand the way you have less protection from corpmates than anyone else does, I think, strike anyone who comes to it afresh as faintly absurd.

    So (assuming you read comments on 6-week old articles)... what might be a buff of corresponding magnitude?

    ReplyDelete
  43. ""Ganking still remains. We know that people who quit from this are people who will never try Eve again because they feel violated.""

    Isn't it SO SO SO FUNNY how CCP Rise directly and empirically refuted this at FanFest...?

    CCP is full of such shit sometimes, honestly. 90% of the people I AWOXed were at least 2 years old and flying pimpmobiles in HiSec, not newbies. And what is this nonsense "you can still infiltrate the corp and suicide gank them" - WTF?

    ReplyDelete
  44. Wow, so much whining in a post. Never seen so much whining.., even tops the carebears. You hear that? That's the sound of gankers whining, hahahahahahahahahahahahahah

    ReplyDelete
  45. Nothing makes me sad like Griefer Tears, so trod upon, poor wretches, you might even have to actually use the designated griefer areas, or start your own game or something; take heart, if you just go straight to hell, you can probably collect tears for eternity.

    ReplyDelete

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