Wednesday, December 12, 2012

Calling All Theorycrafters and Market Gurus

Awhile ago I wrote a post about the use of EFT and training skills for ganker alts. The new version of EVE Fitting Tool is up, which includes the changes made to the Catalyst's CPU and powergrid.

If you don't feel like downloading a new version of EFT and importing your characters' skills and fits, you can just do the following:

Multiply the Catalyst's total CPU by 1.047
Multiply the Catalyst's total powergrid by 1.166

Now for the real reason for today's post. It's time to talk about meta/named modules for a ganking Catalyst. There are two main reasons why someone might use meta/named modules rather than tech II. First, obviously, is skillpoints. We'll always have some gankers who haven't trained tech II yet or who don't intend to spend the training time for tech II.

The second reason is cost. In some cases, meta/named modules will offer a significant boost over tech I--sometimes not that far off from tech II, in fact--while also being much less expensive than tech II.

To come up with good fitting ideas, there are two components that need to be puzzled out. First there are the EFT questions: Which modules offer the biggest boosts? Which would require extra fitting skills (or doing things like dropping warp scramblers or only upgrading some of the guns)? These are the easier questions.

For reference, here's a list of the (potentially) more common alternate modules that you theorycrafters and EFT warriors can look over. From eyeballing the market, some of the other versions don't appear to be common.


- Limited Light Ion Blaster I
- Limited Light Neutron Blaster I

- Regulated Light Ion Phase Cannon I
- Regulated Light Neutron Phase Cannon I

- Anode Light Ion Particle Cannon I
- Anode Light Neutron Particle Cannon I

- Modal Light Ion Particle Accelerator I
- Modal Light Neutron Particle Accelerator I

Damage Mods:

- Gauss Field Balancer I
- Linear Flux stabilizer I

And generally, consider the practicality of using neutron blasters instead of ion blasters in tech I, named, and tech II fittings now that the CPU/powergrid have changed.

Now for the second component of the puzzle, which is where things get interesting. As you know, unlike other areas of EVE, we are not interested in putting together that one perfect ship or even that one perfect doctrine ship. Our Knights run through thousands of guns in a short period of time, and will continue to consume many thousands more.

Therefore, a module can only be considered useful if it can be produced or acquired in extremely large quantities. That's where knowledge of the market will come in handy. The ultimate test of a module's worth is whether it can be reliably seeded on the market in whatever system we're operating. I have been very impressed thus far with our ability to seed Kamio with our basic tech I and tech II fittings.

Once we've determined which modules can be acquired/built in large enough quantities to be considered easily available to our gankers, we look at cost. Is the cost of the module worth the advantage over tech I that it offers? For example, you wouldn't want to double your total gank price just to get a 10% total bonus to damage. The fittings should offer a significant increase to damage.

At the same time, they should also be significantly less costly than the tech II versions. Since they'll do less damage than tech II, it wouldn't make much sense to go to the trouble of acquiring the modules unless there's a significant decrease in cost.

When all the factors are considered together, the picture should become clear. Certain modules on the list above will be too rare, while others will be too ineffective or too expensive to be worth it. Some will be out-classed by others (e.g. much better damage while not being much worse in price/availability).

If you know your way around EFT and/or the Jita market, don't be shy. Come up with some ideas and use the comment section of this post to bounce your ideas back and forth.


  1. Dear Supreme Protector,
    Looking at the short supply of named modules in Jita, I am sad to discover that it would be difficult to fit even 100 catalysts. Thus, I cannot easily see the use and production of such vessels en masse.

    However, it would still be possible for individual Agents or groups to get a small amount of said ships in order to give a slight boost to dps in case the gang needs it. This is especially true because of the lowered fitting requirements of the meta modules, allowing for fewer unused slots.

    After playing with EFT for a while, it would appear that a 4 day old Agent should be able to fit 3x 'Gauss Field Balancer I' in the lowslots, provided he also fits a whole set of 'Regulated Light Neutron Phase Cannon I' cannon to his highslots. Additionally, there is enough CPU and Grid left to just barely fit a single sebo.

    Such a vessel can dish out 320+ dps, assuming rigs, as opposed to 270 from a meta1 variant.

  2. Could you have an agent with enough industry to manufacture the modules needed for the fleet?

  3. Named modules (meta1,2,3,4) are seeded through rat kills. I'm a bit skeptical that there will be enough named modules available to serve as more than a rare luxury - but I'll be happy if I'm wrong.

    @ Anonymous:

    Meta0 modules, particularly the ones we use, are extremely easy to produce in bulk. The BPO's are cheap, the ME/PE research is fast, and the build times/costs are low.

    Tech2 modules obviously require more time and effort to build - I don't know if it would be worth building them, instead of just sourcing from a local market. Invention + Manufacturing for these modules would significantly reduce costs, but it would take more industry characters to supply them in large quantities. As an example, a single manufacturing slot can only produce 16 Tech2 neutron blasters in a day, using a Rapid Equipment Assembly Array and PE -4 blueprint copies (decryptors aren't worth it for small modules like this).

  4. We have a manufacturing POS not so far away from Kamio. I could have a word with the higher ups if need be.

  5. It looks like consensus is building that the named modules are too rare to give much attention. Any thoughts on the use of neutrons vs. ions (in tech I and tech II fittings), or a mix of neutrons & ions?

    1. One can use all neutrons in a tech I fit, if you have nothing in midslots. That's true with Electronics III. You can fit a sebo with Electronics IV, so some can do that. Or you can fit a sebo by using meta1+ guns/sebo, which is what I do.

      We probably do want 1 ganker per squad to have a warp scrambler, and sometimes 1 to have a web. Those guys can do as Alana says below, replacing neutrons with ions as needed.

  6. I would say, use as many neutrons as possible, and fill in the remainder with ions.

  7. Well, I have been using meta 1-3 modules (and some 4, though I find them not cost effective except from my junk bin) since I started ogging. I mean ganking. (Old netrek player, me.)

    The meta modules are considerably better than either tech I (damage) or IIs (price), and the supply, though quite finite, is still pretty large. Just look at the sell orders at Jita, admittedly at some perhaps too-high prices, but they are there. I.e. for Anode Light Neutron Particle Cannon Is, there is a sell order at Jita for 748 of them at ~700k. Now, that's a much higher price than a buy order. Also there are several hundred of them cheaper, in many smaller lots. Still, that's enough for almost 100 cats.

    And in fact I have a stash of 775 Limited Light Neutron Blasters Is that my main bought for me via buy orders at a reasonable price. This took only a few days -- the turnover at Jita has got to be a few hundred per day, at least. Lots of people running missions. Similarly I bought myself all the other stuff I would want in bulk, aside from Catalysts, which I buy at Kamio.

    Not every one of us can do this. But at least one or two can, probably indefinitely. Two people in a gankfleet of 4-6, is significant.

    I might suggest that we organize buying at Jita, at least, so that exactly one of us is designated to buy any given item. Possibly other hubs too, though I expect we can draw goods to Jita via relatively high prices.

    1. That's what I was thinking. The named mods may be limited in quantity, but if there's enough daily turnover the supply may be more than it appears at first glance.

      Then it becomes a question of which named guns you think are the most cost-effective while still having decent availability.

  8. I'm honestly surprised that there aren't more industry corps actively bringing freighters of this stuff over to kamino, along with catas and mining barges... Seriously it's like a goldmine for any indy corp.

  9. Some time in January I'll have a well researched Catalyst BPO, full run copies will be made available to people that want them, I'll probably do the same for mag stabs once I get my grubby little hands on a BPO.

  10. Lamprey / Gank here... I did some research on Magnetic Field Stabilizers, and here's what I found:

    Assume your base DPS is 350 with meta 0 Magnetic Field Stabilizer 1s. Each incremental level of meta adds roughly 10DPS, up to 390 max for meta 4 Magnetic Vortex Stabilizers. Magnetic Field Stabilizer 2s don't add incremental DPS over meta 4 modules, but they require significantly less CPU.

    The Price / DPS breakdown for MFSes is as follows:
    m0 --> 352 DPS --> 139K ISK / module
    m1 --> 361 DPS --> 250K ISK / module
    m2 --> 370 DPS --> 158K ISK / module
    m3 --> 380 DPS --> 340K ISK / module
    m4 --> 391 DPS --> 895K ISK / module
    t2 --> 392 DPS --> 1.4M ISK / module

    Clearly, m2 is a steal -- that's why I just bought every single Linear Flux Stabilizer on the market in Jita 4-4, and will be bringing them back to Kamio shortly. Meta 3 is also a good deal; t2 is way overpriced.

    1. Ok, let's play again - this time with Light Ion Blasters. As before, my DPS is just indicative based on whatever skills I happened to have set in EFT, but you get the general idea.

      Price / DPS breakdown for Light Ion Blasters is as follows:
      m0 --> 287 DPS --> 70k ISK / per
      m1 --> 282 DPS --> 23k ISK / per (FYI - this one is easier to fit)
      m2 --> 316 DPS --> 100k ISK / per
      m3 --> 330 DPS --> 96k ISK / per
      m4 --> 345 DPS --> 280k ISK / per
      t2 --> 392 DPS --> 1.1M ISK per

      Moral of the story: Never, ever fly meta 0 Light Ion Blasters - they blow. Fly m3 or at least m2. If you're feeling rich, fly m4, or t2.

    2. Nice work. Things become much clearer when you break things down this way. What happens when you throw the Neutrons into the mix, using the same kind of analysis? (Assume fitting all 8.)

    3. Final comments:
      - If you can fit them, neutron m2 blasters are an ok halfway point between the m3 and m4 versions of the light ion blasters in terms of both price and damage. Don't fly Neutral m3/m4 though - both are around the same cost as t2 light ion blasters, but with less damage.

      - Never not fit Faction Ammo! Caldari Navy Antimatter gave 430 DPS vs. 374 DPS for standard Antimatter in one example I looked at. If you're only fitting ~100 rounds, that means you get ~15% DPS increase for only ~55K ISK. Very cost effective!

  11. Simple way to gain 50% more modules.

    Let someone loot the suicide wrecks. And use the mods again.

    1. I was under the impression our scouts loot the wrecks. I know some of them do, sometimes, because I have been given some of the recycled loot. Not sure how common it is, though.

  12. With only engineering III you can fit a full rack of meta-0 light neutrons, 3 meta-0 magnetic field stabilisers and two hybrid damage rigs (collision accelerator, burst aerator) while leaving the mids empty. This is the max damage meta-0 Catalyst so ions should be entirely unnecessary from now on. Players with electronics IV and meta modules should make sure to fit a scram with their spare CPU.

    -Johnny Aideron

    1. I just checked my ganker alt's skills again in EFT and to fit the max-damage meta-o catalyst you also need either electronics IV OR weapon upgrades 3 (the latter should train faster).

      -Johnny Aideron

  13. an Industrialist I can answer the question about fittings; it turns out with pretty easy solutions:

    Named mods are dangerous; they do not scale well, any speculator that sights any increased interest on this modules will try to corner the market, and prices can double very easily; not to mention that you're talking about this publicly... 2+2=4 for any competent market player.

    So if you want to be able to scale the operation easily containing costs, there is no option but to go to meta 0 modules, that is, the ones that can be produced by players.

    Ok, lets play EFT + EVEMON:

    Basic New Order Knight Catalyst:
    1D3H training with initial remap=21 int, 27 perp, 17 rest.
    Gallente Frigates III
    Destroyers I
    Weapon Upgrades III
    Mechanics III
    Jury Rigg III
    Hybrid Weapon Rigging I

    1x Catalyst (Cat)
    8x Light Neutron Blasters I (LNB I)
    3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer I (MagFS I)
    1x S. Hybrid Burst Aerator I (SHBAer I)
    1x S. Hybrid Collision Accelerator I (SHCAcc I)

    Damage with Caldari Antimatter S (CNAS): 225dps, 595 volley.

    I can offer this pack at any High Sec Station for 2.2Misk with 100 rounds of CNAS. With enough advise, I can serve big quantities of them (thinking of 250 packs? No problem, a three days advise note will suffice right now).

    Adding 7 more days of training (without a remap of attributes) pushing Electronics to V and Weapon Upgrades to IV, CPU increases enough to add a Warp Scrambler to the basic pack.

    Now, going down all the way to Tech II fittings, we get the superganker:

    Tech II New Order Knight Catalyst:
    1x Cat
    8x LNBII
    3x MagFS II
    1x SHBAer I
    1x SHCAcc I

    The tentative quote for this baby is 16Misk with enough Void S rounds, but I have to iron out some details (I hope I can down the quote, at least 1Misk).

    This baby can be equipped adding simply Engineering IV (21H more of training) to the minimal skill queue, so in principle there is no point of looking for Ion Blasters II, and by the time that anyone go to Small Blaster Specialization, Eng. should be at IV... except is there is an imperious need to fit a warp scrambler, when CPU becomes too short. The solution is tough, and using the Warp Scrambler with 26CPU (the rest with less CPU need are out of question, these babies go for 40+ Misk) it is needed to use the Electronics implant even maxing Electronics and Weapon Upgrades, which conflicts with the Small Hybrid Turrets implants (slot 6), which are cheaper, and greatly more useful.

    One solution (a bright one, I have to say humbly) is to substitute the aerator rig and put an Small Algid Hybrid Administration Unit I (which lows CPU need for turrets), which, if you train Hybrid Rigs to V, can be combined with Locus Coordinator, that gives 15%+ optimal range. This way, using Void S, volleys stay the same (1157hp), and dps only suffers a bit, from 562 to 546 for a fairly skill setup after a bit more than 2 training months (Adv Weap. Up. III; Gunn V; S. Blaster Spec. III; Rapid Firing III; S Hybrid Turr. IV, Surgical Strike IV, Thermodynamics I, Engineering V, Electronics V, and required skills).



    And now, the connoisseurs treasure for people with deep pockets and lots of gusto for being the Top damage boy in the kill mail:

    Tech II De Luxe New Order Knight Catalyst:
    1x Cat
    8x LNBII
    1x WS
    3x MagFS II
    1x SHCAcc II
    1x SAHAdmU I

    Which will be provided only under private and closed quote, but expect to be at least 30Misk.

    This beast can fit easily a Warp Scrambler, and with the set of skills above exposed can fit also a meta Sensor Booster with a meta Warp Scrambler, for example. Maxing damage skills, and using SH-603 implant (+3% damage) we arrive to 718dps with 1383hp volleys, allowing a solo Knight to gank an untanked Mackinaw in 0.5 and probably in 0.6 sec space.

    The basic pack can be enhanced in a discretionary manner (relating to my capability to pick up meta modules a good prices), so there is no point in giving quotes; my current idea is to serve full packs in private contracts by taking orders at the station of choice, plus, may be, putting up a Logistic corp that the Knights can join and seeding it with Corp contracts for full packs and modules, ships, rigs and ammo singled out. I refrain, at this moment, of putting ships or modules in market (at least in big quantities), because I want to offer good prices in a consistent manner only for Knights and I want to quell the capability of any resistant to the New Order of putting trouble out buying station seeded markets.

    Any comment to this proposal will be very useful to iron out details, especially in the logistic part.

    Also, I want to announce to the people that went with Alba Guerrero in the ganking party last night in Kamio and Halaima that I'll be this night there with the ships, at the station we talked about just before I disconnected. I'm putting Alba under an accelerated training queue for Corporation skills; this night I will create the Logistic Corp, so any Knight that want to join can do it.

    Of course James, I'll send you an email announcing this post, and asking you some questions about logistic needs for the Order.

    I hope we can do great business,

    Hail the New Order!, Hail James 315, Saviour of High Sec!

    Erikkha Desargues
    Desargues TechnoSystems Co.

    1. This all sounds great. I am strong proponent of meta-N blasters, but I certainly recognize that they don't scale well. Right now our gank fleet ranges from 4-9 when I am on (evenings in the USA). So meta-N can be a substantial part of the supply, or even all of it. But as the fleet grows, we will increasingly be unable to supply it with meta-N. And so we must have a supply of T1 and T2.

      For my purposes, the thing that you can make that I most want supplied at my New Order base is Cats. I can certainly buy them at Jita but I cannot easily move them in quantity. I do hope that you (or whoever is doing it) continues the good supply of Cats at Kamio.

    2. I'm not the responsible of the Kamio Cata supply; regarding feeding markets at stations, you should take into account the possibility that opponents to the New Order can try to obstruct OP voiding local markets of ships and modules; seems that they are not doing it right now, but it will be only a question of time, especially if the exhumer attrition rate is big and New Order Knights OPs expand to a fairly portion of High Sec. This possibility can be addressed, somewhat, putting high prices, but then this curtails the economic efficiency of the whole OP.

      Anyway, I'm ready to provide at order ships, modules and ammo to anyone interested under private contracts. If I have prepositioned stocks, in general response will be very quick.

      But the more interesting feature of the standard packs are its combined characteristics of price, availability and easy logistics. That way supply can be greatly simplified, allowing to scale operations easily; I can think that with enough time (put it 2 months) I can scale production, supply and logistics to provide many hundreds of basic packs per month maintaining prices (in line with minerals quotes) at any High Sec Station, including tens of Tech II packs. Going meta modules I find going above 500-600 cata packs per month very unlikely in my case, and I cannot guarantee any price stability.

    3. I do worry a bit about rebels buying up Cat stocks, but as with meta-N modules they still have the problem of burying the corpse. And of course if they tried that we could just use private contracts and/or trading in station to exchange Cats, so it would be a fairly low-value attack.

      One of the nice things about the N.O. is that it is a charity organization, a money-sink. Everyone there is there for the fun, the tears, and to help that precious trickle of miners ready to see reason. We do not make money; indeed it a substantial money sink for all of us in terms of opportunity cost, and many of us in isk-cost. Because of that we work as a team, and one can trust other New Order members and supporters.

  15. It is true that people reading this can attempt to profit on the market, and perhaps do OK. But as for me, I do not buy from sell orders for anything I am serious about buying. Therefore, anyone trying to corner the meta 1 blaster market has a serious problem, namely: they have to spend a fair amount of cash to do so, and they cannot get it back without actually selling the goods. Say that you buy up, oh, 10000 m1 blasters. Now you want to sell them to the New Order. How do you do that? Perhaps you bring them to Kamio and put them on the market. Well, choose your price wisely; if you go very much higher than Jita, then I will just buy mine out of the continual supply of new ones coming in.

    By the way, I was at Jita last night. I looked at the market history for the last 30 days for the m1 blaster. There are 500-800 of them selling each and every day.

    1. No Gladius, they do not corner the market buying out, they will do it outperforming buy orders constantly, combined with some sparse cleaning out of the most cheap sell orders; a team of 4 or 5 market players can double the price of meta LNB in very few time by this technique; and that can be done in a very plastic manner, so the new high prices will have a lot of inertia. If they have enough deep pockets you can do nothing to stop them, because the shallowness of that markets.

      So even seeing that some meta modules can enhance damage power of Tech I fitted Catas at convenient prices, it cannot be the principal logistic choice because then it will become an exploitable weakness of the OP.

      Then, as I see it, the wise action course is to base OPs on meta 0 fittings, but facilitate the use of meta modules in accord to supply and fitting capability of the Knights; that way you can maximize Global dps capability maintaining operational availability with the Logistic part under control. As an example, if you fit your catas with Limited LNB, you can do it as long as there is a good supply of them (in terms of numbers, supply easiness and price), but if it fails there is ready as default the meta 0 fitting.

      Take as example the following case:
      In Kamio, the Logistic Corp I have proposed in my post, has feed 50 Basic New Order Knight Catalysts packs under Corp contracts. Also, it have (in contracts or directly at market) some ships, modules, etc, including meta ones. Suppose you can fit Limited LNB; as long as there is available at the station of that turrets you use it, but if they go out, you have ready the basic packs to continue OPs. This includes, for example, covering an unusual increase in Knight attendance at ganking parties. Because basic packs are really easy to procure, it is easy to maintain a big stock at any station, and to react quickly to any shortage, all this containing the man-time cost of this logistics.

    2. I don't think we disagree much. We cannot have meta-N as a primary logistic choice because it would be exploitable by clever rebels. I certainly support the idea of having a T1 and T2 Cat supply that rebels cannot interfere with in any way. You are 100% correct, that is indeed the wise course of action.

      Our difference is merely one of degree; given the assumed substitute as per above, I don't think that attempting market interference is going to be viable for rebels. In part this relates to their lack of organization. In part it is because of their greed and the unfavorable economics of market-manipulation.

  16. Would it be interesting for an industrial corp, mining in one of the New Order systems (for fuel pruposes so taking only what is needed), to provide you with materials for your continuous efforts in clearing us out of the systems. Opposed to letting all members of said corporation to purchase a mining permit?
    I am in possession of a researched catalyst BPO and have the assets to conduct invention/production.
    Besides that I have some LP that i can trade in at a low rate (1k ISK/LP) to provide you with CN Antimatter

  17. Hiya,
    Lots of people who mission through away or reprocess this sort of stuff unless there is a reasonable BUY order on the local market hub. i suggest using BUY orders at reasonable amount (ie less than the sell orders but more than the highest BUY. this will both lower your costs and raise your supply :).


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