Thursday, November 29, 2012

CCP Seeks Feedback Regarding Bumping

CCP Falcon has opened a special thread regarding bumping (presumably including freighter bumping in addition to miner bumping). You may find that thread at this link.

Here are some of the relevant bits of the OP:
The intention of this thread is to gather questions, opinions and feedback from the player base with regards to bumping, and present them to the Senior GMs for review and responses... In this thread I will be gathering questions, comments, feedback and opinions regarding bumping... This thread will run for one week, until 17:00 on Wednesday, December 5th, after which I will close it. I will then gather responses, opinions, questions and feedback from it, before forwarding it on to the Senior GMs for review, who will then provide a response...
Clearly, the power of the New Order has made all of highsec minerdom tremble with fear. The carebears have only one desire: To eliminate all obstacles to botting and bot-aspirant behavior in highec so they can continue their steady drip of risk-free isk. When carebears beg CCP to do something, CCP usually does it. However, carebears are not the only ones who have opinions about bumping. I believe readers of this blog also have an interest in the future of the bumping mechanic, and I believe those opinions should be represented in that thread.

50 comments:

  1. Worried you're finally getting nerfed? HAH~
    Belligerent undesirables, get bent!

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    Replies
    1. I shall be the one bending you sir.

      Delete
    2. The difference between us 'belligerent undesirables' is we have always been able to adapt to change forced upon us. your kind is unable to adapt, & thus your only recourse is to beg CCP to make the game easier for you.

      Delete
    3. tubrug you attempted to do the same to me, and when you realized you could not, you resorted to putting a bounty on my head - which is still there, by the way, whenever you want to come and get it.
      talk your trash, just remember one thing: you tried and failed.
      i laugh at your post tubrug1

      Princess Minmitan.

      Delete
  2. Bloody hell, a few months of bumping and CCP have to address it because of care bear but hurt. Hasn’t bumping been a valid tactic for years, freighters, carriers and the like. What can CCP do without turning the undock at Jita and other trade hubs into a blood bath?

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    Replies
    1. For the reasons you mentioned, plus the fact that it would be extra work for them, I think CCP would be reluctant to change bumping mechanics. More likely they're considering the carebears' demand to declare miner bumping harassment and freighter bumping an exploit.

      Delete
  3. I've put in my two cents but I still have a pocket full of change so I expect to add more. My opinion is, as always, the completely correct one, so be sure to "like" my comments.

    I am, once again, becoming convinced that Anslo is actually one of my fellow Agents who is having some fun with the miners by making their arguments in the worst, reductio ad absurdum, way. I cannot believe anyone, not a miner, could actually agree with his vision of the future of Eve. So props to whichever of you guys is carrying it off... its masterful.

    Finally, I think the sticky thread should be moved to General Discussion because the New Order of Highsec is for everyone, not just the denizens of Crime & Punishment (Crime=bot-aspirant behavior, Punishment=BUMP!)

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    Replies
    1. I shall try and add my thoughts to the thread, but my fellow agents have said so much already that it’s hard to add anything to their well thought out points. Plus I don’t think “LOLZ U MINERZ SUCK” would help the cause but as I’m at work watching my brain dribble out onto the keyboard it might just have to be the fore mentioned post. Post well and post hard my fellow agents

      Delete
    2. Replying to my own post. I think I need a shrink...

      In any case, if you ever had ANY doubt about what we are doing (I haven't of course because I'm a zealot) then go read post #56 by MTB Br who is, in fact, our own Emperor MTB. If it wasn't from a known rebel miner I would call it the finest trolling post I've ever seen on Eve-O.

      You will be inspired. Fortunately I live in a part of the country where there isn't any actual mining or I'd run right out and force a coal truck off the road....

      Delete
  4. It isn't particularly surprising...it has been obvious that it is CCP's plan to make high sec and low/null more like PvE vs PvP areas for a long time now, to more mimic other games. This is just an extension of that. Sad but true.

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    Replies
    1. Unfortunately, CCP seem to be ignoring the evidence available that this course of action only brings about a short-term profit spike before the new masses drop off. It has happened with many other games & will happen with EVE if they continue down this path.

      Smaller profits over the long-term are much better than high profits over the short-term.

      Delete
    2. Not if you are an exec that has to show big profit improvements for a few quarters to cash out nice bonus checks.

      Delete
    3. So you're saying that a short burst of high-income followed by nothing is better that slow, steady growth over the long term?

      That is nothing short of stupid.

      Delete
    4. "Better" is not a well-defined term, here. In a world where executive are primarily compensated by stock options, and where companies which follow option B exclusively are liable to be taken over by someone who switches to option A, pumps and dumps, making huge profits then watching the company go bankrupt under someone else's ownership (a la Mitt Romney with Bain), there are real and powerful incentives to choose what a normal economic model would describe as a worse option. Thus: monocle-gate, in which it was revealed that the mob of EVE players were better situated to look after the long term health of EVE than CCP was, not only through better information, but through different vested interests.

      Delete
    5. For a game that has spanned over a decade, a business model that can survive that long and maintain profitability will never look at short term. Gaming companies aren't about cash on hand. Games with a short term microtransaction goal however... follow the .com model of the late 90s.

      Delete
    6. Murk, you just proved that monocle-gate could have never occurred. Yet, it did occur. Ergo, your theory is wrong.

      So, we know that gaming companies can attempt to switch business models, even after a decade of sense with the old one. Why did CCP try to switch? Pressure to pay for Dust 514 and the WoD MMO? CCP devs blowing all the cash on hookers and blow? We'll never know.

      Delete
    7. So you're saying all the advertisements about the freeroam of Eve is all for naught? Look, I don't want to argue, I'm definitely not equipped to talk economics of a game I play to shoot people... I just highly doubt someone is going to base a game on one thing, run it that way for 10 years then flip it over for a profit that will not exist. They are developing MORE, not trying to get out.

      In my opinion.


      But yea, My theory is more than easily able to be wrong. But that's the beauty, it is unimportant at any rate and has zero impact =)

      Delete
    8. Were you around for monocle-gate?

      Delete
    9. I.e., they were talking about putting in ammo/ships that you could possibly buy only for real money, pay2win. That was their plan, helicity boson cracked the encryption on a pdf file, revealed the details, players rioted, helicity got banned, CCP backtracked on that plan. These are actual facts, which contradict the assumptions made in your posts above.

      http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2011/06/legend-is-banned-from-eve-online.html

      If they were willing to do that, then can you see why we're worried that they might do something comparatively less shocking, like remove even more pvp from hisec?

      Delete
    10. I didn't know that's what it was called, but I heard about a microtransaction test that spawned the "summer of rage". And yea, microtransactions usually are the last money out before a game dies, even though sometimes it could bring the game back to life... it usually doesn't.

      The part that becomes dicey about microtransactions, is where it becomes pay2win versus simply paying for a shortcut. If it's an exclusive item not being able to get ingame, and more powerful than its counterparts, its bad. But if its simply paying 15 bucks for a plex to sell for 500mil so you can buy a navy apoc... that's a shortcut.

      Slippery slope indeed. The peoblem is, is that I wasn't around for this monocle gate, but I have been playing games for longer and have seen the birth of microtransactions in other games, private servers, upstart korean mmos by the truckload, etc.

      So yea, you can dissolve my theory as it applies to a specific since I don't have the direct experience in this game of that event... but since I was generalizing anyways based on companies and games, not eve and ccp... it's apples and oranges anyways.

      =)

      Delete
    11. And admittedly, I shouldn't have spoken in an absolute. Whenever someone does that, they generally get burned... and I did =P

      Delete
  5. One of the complaints seems to be that the New Order discriminates against non-English speaking miners. In an attempt to quell this misunderstanding I know offer the first paragraph of The Code... in Latin...

    Illic 'haud, negando illam, humanum genus potest solum pervenire eius plenam potential per creationem a humanitatem. Highsec salvatorem sum princeps exercitus civilizing. Highsec fossores ut dicamus veniant glacies et chalcitis, autem do eis quid ipsi vere postulo: Propositum, dignitate, structura, ordinis, ducente, Influence. Qui sim quaeris, "nisi" a. Fossores servo a se.

    Yeah, I double checked it. Civilizing IS latin. I recommend that The Code be translated into every language across space and time. Think how many more miners we could reach....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree, but none of that Google Translate bullshit. It doesn't do us any good by using it to try to translate English to Russian and accidently saying 'I fucked your mom last night'.

      Delete
    2. I use basic words and phrases when using Google Translate. "Bump" could translate to many wacky or sexy things, whereas one could use this alternative:

      "I am moving you. You were not here. Pay me 10 million ISK."

      ...obviously leaving ISK untranslated. Google Translate does work, you just have to walk back the complexity of what you are communicating. This has worked for me when communicating with Russian miners as their messages back to me translate to English much better.

      Delete
    3. English is a needlessly complex language & does not translate in to any other language well. English is so complex that most native English speakers can't read or write it properly.

      Delete
  6. I posted the hell out of that thread. Atleast it kept me entertained while at work.

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    Replies
    1. Agreed. I'm quite enjoying the miner rage in that thread, especially since most of the information they spout is hilariously wrong.

      Delete
    2. Did you see the mod hammer that went through the thread?

      Delete
  7. well i posted my thoughts for what its worth. lets see what happens...

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  8. The moderation in the EVE-O thread is hilariously heavy-handed. My favorite was when CCP Falcon locked a freighter bumping thread, directed the participants to the miner bumping thread--where ISD is deleting all freighter bumping comments. I'm not a fan of the moderation, if some miner spews out a ton of lies and distortions, it's likely to stay, but calmly pointing out his errors will most likely be deleted as off-topic. CCP will glean the information they deserve from that thread, which may not be the information they want or need.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is the issue a lot of us protested against back in June. After multiple discussions with CCP about it, they seem to have gotten worse. This is what happens when you sack paid employees over something they had nothing to do (WiS scandal) with & replace them with volunteers that want paid jobs with the company.

      Ironically, they refilled that paid position recently with CCP Falcon & CCP Eterne who honestly are nowhere near as good as CCP Zymurgist was.

      Delete
    2. The censoring IS discouraging, and very uneven. One posters demands that we be exterminated by CCP banning all Agent's accounts is left and even extended. Posts that point out the problem is miner entitlement mentality get blocked or even worse, modified to change the original meaning. I am quoted downthread as saying things that were not my comments. Its going to be a confused mess if someone is actually going to try and decide anything based on the remarks.

      Some of my best stuff too. I guess I just can't resist slipping the dirk in with subtlety and wit.

      Delete
    3. I’m finding it very difficult not to link to Anslo’s brief flirtation with bumping, when he bumped Crab (the gentleman miner), and he didn’t ask for money which has been defined as Harassment. But as the better man (and mostly because it would be deleted) I have so far resisted

      Delete
    4. I'm wondering when the next moderation hammer is going to hit, it's been pretty heavy handed so far and tbqfh honest it looks like the ISD folks don't even realise that the freighter bumping thread was redirected by a CCP staff member to the miner bumping thread.

      What confuses me about Anslo is his past history, he is by all accounts a PvP player, yet he continues to support the biggest carebears who go all out to avoid PvP in any form :o

      Delete
    5. Anslo is the real James 315 alt! Where's my tin foil hat!!

      Delete
    6. If you are upset about the heavy editing being done, post about it in the thread and file a petition. Only thing you can do.

      Also, you cannot post back to a person I've noticed. So say a person says something, and you want to say that what that person said was untrue. If you don't want to get edited out, you need to attack it generically without quoting or linking the person who said the thing - or they will summarily delete it as 'attacking' that person, even though it is clearly part of a reasonable debate.

      Delete
  9. I think CCP may have opened up a giant can of worms with the thread in C&P, one one side you have the people moaning about bumping, on the other side you have people who can see the bigger picture, that a nerf to bumping will have an impact on many different facets to the game, most of which involve something exploding, the very lifeblood of Eve. While I agree that miners should be free to mine if they want, I also think that if a group such as ourselves decides to tax an activity using the tools available to us, then we should be free to do so.

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  10. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."

    Oh, My, God. HAHAHA best quote ever. I'm taking it and putting it in my sig (credited of course)

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  11. Well, that's neat. In post #278 a rebel miner, after failing to convince us that talking to people in local is harassment has decided to go nuclear on us and ....

    Cancel his account...

    That one stings I can tell you. Really hits me where I live.

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    Replies
    1. He quoted me too lol. I almost feel guilty, I mean, I was the straw that broke his camel's back.

      Delete
    2. Don't feel too bad. This is the opponent of the New Order who wanted us all to have our accounts banned. Who thought if someone in local asked you to stop asking for ISK you should have to stop, even if you weren't talking to them, who thought we were insensitive to people who had to go to the bathroom a lot. Read posts #55 and #109 and you will be glad he is gone. He never understood Eve in the first place. He is, in fact, the cause of this whole thread with his petitioning the CSM to get involved over on that part of the forums.

      And one other thing. I hope we never consider ISD Tyrozan as anything but an enemy of the New Order. The guy edited 15 posts in a row including winding up by wiping one to just my smiling face. Looks like he went off duty about post 159 so everything after that is intact... for now. Read it while you can.

      Man, I'm not even a vet and look how bitter I am about it.

      Delete
    3. 87102-6 is unsubscribing? His sensibilities are too easily offended.

      Delete
    4. I submitted a petition about ISD Tyrozan, fairly carefully backing up a case that he isn't even living up to the standards of a normal poster, let alone an official CCP representative. I doubt anything will come of it, but it's a pretty decent effort so who knows.

      Delete
    5. When I got to work and brought the thread up and seen all those Rule #24 violation edits.... my heart sank. I understand staying on topic... but that was cleaning house like a puritan.

      Delete
    6. I reported posts that he had edited and asked that they be considered for reinstatement by a more senior person. Probably won't get anything out of that either.

      Delete
  12. James and all his many alts (us) apparently proved to be too much. The site is down currently.

    ReplyDelete
  13. The Goons have found the thread in large numbers now as it has swerved into freighter bumping too. It just shows that changing bumping would be a "big deal" and will have to be considered a lot longer than just a "one week discussion and then we decide" thing like CCP Falcon says in his first post.

    ISD Tyrozan either had the day off or the complaints about the moderating got through as the thread hasn't been ripped to incomprehensibility (say THAT five times fast!).

    ReplyDelete
  14. I wonder if the same fuss would have been raised if the bumping operation was performed by a large reputable hi-sec mining corp, in order to increase its mining profits rather than by a bunch of pirates, gankers and other 'belligerent undesirables'

    I'm guessing CCP would have considered it working as intended, it being just another form of economic warfare, which is exactly as it should be.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. reputable hi-sec mining corp?

      sounds like an oxymoron to me.

      Delete
  15. If I may offer a suggestion,
    Why not skim a bit of directional change off bumping...
    and add in small structural damage for both ship THAT DOESN'T TRIGGER CONCORD RESPONSE. It would seem more realistic after all two large ships going hundreds of meters per second shouldn't bounce off each other like they're made of rubber.
    (Unless tritanium is actually similar to rubber, but that's a question for another day.)
    It would still easily allow the CODE's glorious mission to be fulfilled while keeping risk in hi-sec ganking operations.

    ReplyDelete

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